Have a Pre-Carnal Existence?

Part II – The Enhanced Public Debate Presentation


By Larry Acheson


A Response to Chuck Henry’s book

Trinity, Oneness, Duality, and Pre-Existence





Did Yeshua the Messiah Have a Pre-Carnal Existence?

Text Box: Part II:  The Enhanced Debate Presentation



A Response to Chuck Henry’s book

Trinity, Oneness, Duality, and Pre-Existence


By Larry Acheson





First Publication, June 28, 2020

Last edited September 13, 2020






A Truth Seekers Publication

Plano, Texas  75074-6010







Did Yeshua the Messiah

Have a Pre-Carnal Existence?

Text Box: Part II:  The Enhanced Debate Presentation

 Part II – The Enhanced Public Debate Presentation

 A Response to Chuck Henry’s book

Trinity, Oneness, Duality, and Pre-Existence


By Larry Acheson







Reinforcing My Approach:  Not a Salvational Issue


Micah 5:2 -- Is the Prophesied Ruler’s “Origin” from of Old or is His Origin “Ordained” from Old?


Misapplying and Mis-Defining “Textual Criticism”


Does Chuck Achieve His Goal?


Yeshua is an Angel


Hebrew Scholars Who Translated Isaiah 9:6 Into Greek Understood a Prophetic Angel


The Unnecessarily Redundant Yahweh?


Did Yeshua Come Down From Heaven?


Who (or What) is the Word?


Preaching to the Choir:  He Came as a Man


Philo and the Logos


Colossal Misinterpretation of Colossians 1


Colossians Chapter 1: Biblical Unitarian Revelation or Biblical Unitarian Spin?


By Him or For Him?


Ad Hominem Attacks: Maligning Philo and Justin Martyr


Translating the Greek Title Theos as “God”:  Would you?


Chuck’s Ad Hominem Attack on Philo


The Logos and High Priest


Chuck Henry’s Reaction to Philo Identifying the Logos as “Mediator”


Philo Believed That Elohim is ONE


The Jewish Scribe and the Shema


I Who Made Them


Philo in Perspective


Twice Martyred: Chuck’s Ad Hominem Attack on Justin Martyr


Gnostic, Agnostic, Legalist, Heretic — Labels We Like to Pin on “Those People”


Where He Was Before


Confusing the Words “Rise and Ascend”


Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible’s “Anabaino” Error


“Character Witness”


Before Abraham Was, I Wasn’t!


Playing the Telephone Game with John 8:58


Before Abraham Was, I’m in Yahweh’s Plan!  So Are You!


The Historical Perspective



Did Yeshua the Messiah Have a Pre-Carnal Existence?

Part II – The Enhanced Public Debate Presentation


By Larry Acheson


Based on my debate presentation vs. Chuck Henry on 06/22/2019 in Rising Star, Texas


Click here to access a full-length PDF file of this study.




he following is based on the pre-debate transcript I put together in May 2019, one month prior to a public debate I had with Chuck Henry at the Assembly of Yahweh (7th Day) in Rising Star, Texas.  Of course, the topic is “Did Yeshua the Messiah Have a Pre-Carnal Existence?”  I believe He did; Chuck holds that He did not. 

The moderator introduced the debate topic in humble fashion:  “This study is not to create division, but on the contrary, to present two sides of an important question that we should all be interested in.  Yes, this is a topic that has long captivated my interest, yet for over 20 years I had more or less managed to suppress my personal view while enjoying great fellowship with my debate opponent.  However, in 2018 circumstances began to change when Chuck published a book defending his conviction. There is something about publicly promoting a belief that mysteriously transitions it from the level of “friendly disagreement” to “Are you kidding me?!” status, and I felt I could no longer remain silent about our differences.  Since Chuck and I had previously orchestrated a friendly debate about the Trinity a few years earlier – a debate I knew in advance that he would win, since we both already agreed that it's a false doctrine – I thought we could pull it off again.  We agreed to a March 2019 “warm-up” debate that was held in our home, then on June 22, 2019 we participated in a public debate at Chuck’s home assembly near Cisco, Texas.

          Ironically, and contrary to the debate moderator’s opening line, this issue is shown to be a major source of contention – and at least in terms of my relationship with the author of Trinity, Oneness, Duality, and Pre-Existence, the dynamics were detrimentally impacted in a way that I had never imagined possible.  When I gave my life to Messiah Yeshua, this was not what I had in mind.  Moreover, for those who may be considering participating in a debate on a religious topic, I would encourage you to not go to your opponent’s home assembly, where they can “pull the strings,” so to speak.  I think my reasons for imparting this advice will become clear shortly.

      In order to keep everything within the agreed-upon 45 minute time constraint, much of what follows had to be removed from my actual debate presentation, so this enhanced version is considerably more complete than the debate presentation was.  I am also incorporating additional information in response to comments made by my counterpart during the debate.  Chuck and I had agreed that the venue in which the debate would be held would be able to accommodate a PowerPoint presentation, which was one of the two contingencies that I requested prior to agreeing to a debate on this topic.  I would have thought such an agreement presumed that my PowerPoint presentation would be recorded along with the video, but if you’ve watched the YouTube video of the debate, you already know that only one of the slides from my presentation was displayed.  The display for Chuck’s presentation primarily consisted of showing excerpts from his book.

      I am not certain if the decision to cut out my PowerPoint presentation from the YouTube video was made by accident or not.  Was it a “technical slight,” since my original pre-debate accommodation requests didn’t specifically include that the PowerPoint presentation be included with the video, or was it deliberately omitted due to the biased Biblical Unitarian assembly decision-makers not being appreciative of how well it reinforces the points I made? This much I know: The videographer is a Biblical Unitarian from a family of Biblical Unitarians.  I know and love his family, but I also know bias may well have been a factor in the decision to not include my PowerPoint presentation with the debate video.  Yahweh knows. I maintain that an unbiased videographer would have included it. It goes without saying that if I had felt my PowerPoint presentation served no purpose, I wouldn’t have taken the time to put it together, and yes, I am persuaded that it definitely served to reinforce the points I made.  I know there are lots of people out there who, like me, really appreciate visual aids instead of watching the same person just droning the words.  Needless to say, I am more than a little disappointed that I was denied the use of visual aids for the video version of the debate.  In this version, I am not only incorporating all the slides from my presentation, but I’m also including the slides that I had to sacrifice for the sake of honoring the 45 minute limit, as well as many new ones designed to further reinforce the points I’m making in this, Part II of Did Yeshua the Messiah Have a Pre-Carnal Existence? 

      Prior to the debate, when I realized I had more material than I had time to present it all, I decided to omit my original introduction, which incorporated about a minute’s worth of “thank you’s” to everyone who contributed to-wards my preparation.  I only omitted it out of my concern over cutting out too much of the information that I really wanted to cover in my allotted 45 minutes.  As disappointed as I am with the content of Chuck’s book, I wanted to at least be polite enough to thank him for agreeing to debate the topic.  Nevertheless, since I was so concerned that using up those precious seconds would result in my not getting everything else to fit in the 45-minute time frame, I decided to simply put my words on a separate screen prior to the start of my presentation.  Here's a screen capture of the PowerPoint slide I displayed:

      I was described by a couple of Biblical Unitarian viewers as being condescending during my presentation.  Well, I don’t ever mean to come across that way, and maybe I would have exhibited a little more courtesy in the YouTube video version if the PowerPoint slide displayed at right would have been included.  I can understand how removing that screen from the video version of my presentation may have contributed to my appearing impolite and possibly even condescending.  Of course, I’m sure I didn’t score any points with Biblical Unitarian viewers when I charged Chuck Henry with “adding to the Word.”  It’s hard to be polite in that situation. 

      Now that you hopefully have a clearer understanding of the background information, I will begin the script of my presentation as I had it a month prior to the debate – before I trimmed it down to the eventual 45-minute limit.  The earlier version of my presentation opened on a much more congenial note, including verbal expressions of gratitude: 

      Hello, my name is Larry Acheson from Plano, Texas and I challenged Mr. Chuck Henry to a debate on the topic of “Did Yeshua the Messiah Pre-Exist?”    

      More specifically, the question has to do with whether or not Yeshua existed prior to His conception in Miriam’s womb, so for clarification purposes, I vote that we rename the debate “Did Yeshua the Messiah Have a Pre-Carnal Existence?”


      I know I’m the one going first in this debate, but in reality I feel that I’m the one going second because in my opinion Chuck actually went first when he published his book, which is titled Trinity, Oneness, Duality and Pre-Existence.  Before I get started, I do want to thank Chuck for his willingness to debate this issue with me and I want to thank my wife June and daughter Colista for putting up with my having been on a “one track mind” about this one issue for basically the past nine or ten months.  I also want to thank the folks here at the Assembly of Yahweh (7th Day) for graciously offering their facility for this topic.  And finally, I must thank those of you who came here out of an earnest desire to hear both sides in the interest of forming your own conclusion of what is the truth and what is error. 


      Some of you may be perplexed that I asked for a whopping 45 minutes to give this opening presentation.  For those of you who think I’m being given too much time, please consider the fact that I’m rebutting a book that consists of over 500 pages!  How much time should a person be allotted to refute an essay that’s 500 pages long?  Well, I will say that Chuck gave me an opportunity to try doing it in 30 minutes back in March [2019].  Chuck took the time to visit us in our home back in March for what I consider a preliminary debate that essentially allowed the two of us to lay our cards on the table. 

      As we began ironing out our scheduling plans for his visit, I was comfortable with presenting my evidence in 30 minutes.  Was I ever wrong!  Thirty minutes is basically what I need to get warmed up, but frankly, I couldn’t think of a way to offer a cohesive presentation of my proof texts while exposing all the misapplications of Scripture, including distorted contexts, in a span of only 30 minutes!  I knew I bit off more than I could chew even before Chuck arrived that day.  Chuck very graciously allowed for a last-minute schedule change in which I was given two hours to present my evidence, but even that was well short of the time frame I actually needed to cover everything.  With that in mind, I hope you can understand why I need to jump right in, because I can only hope to cover my primary points in 45 minutes.  Actually, it’s probably more like 40 minutes now, since the clock is ticking and I don’t want to talk too fast.  For those of you who may not be able to keep up with all my points, I do plan on eventually offering a more complete refutation of Chuck’s view on Yeshua’s pre-carnal existence on our web site, www.ponderscripture.org.

      This brings the opening segment of my originally-planned debate introduction to a close.



        Up next:     Chapter 1













This is the name of our Creator, Yahweh, sometimes called the Tetragrammaton.  It is given here in (A) the Phoenician script, (B) the Ivrit Kadum (Paleo-Hebrew) script, and (C) the Modern Hebrew script (a stylization of Aramaic).






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